Children of Fathers Who Decide To Become Transgender

21 Apr

“Thank you wonderful women! This is the first time that I have seen in print any discussion of what the children of trans parents go through. These kids are far more deserving of public support and sympathy than any trans-child. The problem is partly that that last thing they want is for any one , […]”

“The problem is partly that that last thing they want is for any one , least of all their peers, to know that their parent is in any way different.”

~~~~~~~~~~

“Kids are really into conformity as they try to make sense of the world and place things into categories, figure out social norms. All kids have to come to terms with the fact that their parents and families of origin are not “normal”, whether because a parent is differently-abled, or is an immigrant with cultural or language differences, or because mom runs a funeral home or dad has long hair and wears eye-liner.

All kids are probably mortified by their parents.

The difference here is lying to children, and/or forcing them to pretend something is true that is not true. It’s perfectly well to subject a kid to a parent who believes that Freemasons run the country. The problem comes when the kid is required to soldier for that parent’s belief. It seems especially damaging when a child is used by a parent as a malleable tool of affirmation for the benefit of the parent’s emotional life. Forced adherence to “family secrets” fall into this category as well.

Telling a kid that her dad is becoming a tranny because he believes personality traits are rooted in reproductive biology is one thing (a horrible thing to feminists, lesbians and gays, granted). Forcing that kid to also believe, or pretend to believe that papa has now become female, on his command, is abusive.

It’s no different than a David Koresh type situation.

It’s okay (at least legally!) for dad to believe he is The Prophet. Forcing his children under duress to affirm his belief is abusive. Forcing the child to soldier for that belief, even more so.”

https://gendertrender.wordpress.com/2015/04/14/creator-of-michfest-boycott-emily-dievendorf-resigns-as-executive-director-of-equality-michigan/#comment-51983

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24 Responses to “Children of Fathers Who Decide To Become Transgender”

  1. No name 2015/04/21 at 7:53 am #

    I don’t see why men want to take away the ‘mother’ role, unless they are wishing to erase woman as child primary caretakers[because men are not] and declare a man can be the mother by putting on a dress, and men don’t want childbirth /pregnancy to be perceived to make any special bond that is favors the female parent or protects a child’s life.

    It is forcing a man’s sex life on a child, especially when they advocate feeding a child hormone milk from a man. That made me sick. Most moms are trying to keep children away from hormone produced milk, because there is a problem with it, but for a man’s sexual feeling, you have to endanger your child and feed them the same shit he is taking[through artificially produced breast milk]? If he is gulping down viagra, or black market HRT drugs that goes to the baby too, but the feelings of the man are put above the child’s health and safety

    . The child’s mother is who gave birth to them [idealy]. But it is a special bond children form with the mom that is important to a young child esp when the father is stepping over the children and ignoring the job of raising them as the second parent to succeed as adults, to pursue his middle age, midlife crisis/ sex fantasy [another woman, his crossdressing, blew house mortgage on sports car he can’t afford, etc].

    Do these guys really think these kids won’t remember or rebel later from this? They think kids wont remember torture and illogical rants from their father trying to be something he is not, that ignored their future as other humans he was responsible for??.

    Men are idiots about children and they try to make them props in their pervy fantasy rather then the children being the focus to prepare them for life.

    irresponsible and narcissistic. Don’t have kids to make the wife shut up if you don’t plan to raise them.

    Like

  2. thePhoebeStone 2015/04/22 at 2:36 pm #

    “Telling a kid that her dad is becoming a tranny because he believes personality traits are rooted in reproductive biology is one thing”

    Okay, “tranny” is considered a slur against transsexuals, because it’s short for transvestite, who is someone that identifies as a man but has autogynephilia. Transsexuals are people born with physical brains that aren’t the same as their average birth gendered counterparts, but instead is closer in physical resemblance to that of the opposite gender. Therefore they identify as this other gender because their brains aren’t the same as those of the same gender. Most transition the body to match the brain, and that causes the Gender Dysphoria(which itself creates depression and anxiety issues within a person) to alleviate or even disappear in some cases(the depression and anxiety with it).

    “Forcing that kid to also believe, or pretend to believe that papa has now become female, on his command, is abusive.”

    Forcing religion onto children is pretty bad in my own opinion, but that’s seen as okay by most people… but that’s the thing, you aren’t forcing anything upon a child being transsexual. The hormones have changed papa over to be physically female, so there is no pretending at all. You have it all backwards. From what I’ve seen, children are 10 times more accepting than most adults. My friend’s kids all call me respectively by my new name, and gender, just because they wanted to. I didn’t force anything on anyone. Nor did I have to explain anything sexual… it’s as easy as, “sometimes a person is born with a brain that doesn’t match the body, and a person needs medical help to be who they really are.” Bam, done! The toughest question I ever got back from a little one after saying that was, “Can I have cake now?”. If anything, they are better people now because they have a broader understanding of the human condition.

    Like

    • Miep 2015/04/22 at 4:53 pm #

      1. “Cis,” “TERF,” “scum,” and “fish” are all slurs used by transgenders and their allies to refer to women. I gather you don’t have a problem with that, so I don’t have a problem with “tranny.”

      2. There is no science supporting your claim that people are born with brains that are somehow associated with the opposite sex.

      3. I completely agree with you about forcing religion into children.

      4. Taking hormones does not change a man into a woman. This kind of argument implies that women are just hormones, which is misogynist. To be a woman is to be a person who has female biology and genetic makeup and lived cultural experience.

      5. I cannot speak for your experience with your children, but you imply that your experience negates everyone else’s. That’s pretty self-centered.

      Like

      • thePhoebeStone 2015/04/22 at 5:22 pm #

        1. How is cis a slur? That’s the Latin opposite of trans. How is TERF a slur? That’s literally a name for a group of people who identify as so. “Scum” is a slur, sure, but I don’t use it nor do any of my friends, you are bastardizing all of us thanks to few of us, and “fish”? Never heard that one. Don’t tell the fish they’re living slurs though! Tranny is a slur only because you are calling us something we are not, and something that people think we are, making it worse.

        2. There have been multiple studies that show that there is a sexual dimorphism in the brains of humans (men and women have slightly different brains), and that trans people have brains not equivalent to their same birth gender counterparts. You are backwards, there is no science supporting the adverse to my claim.

        3. Cool, we see eye to eye then here.

        4. No, people are not JUST hormones, again you are focusing on the parts and not the whole. Just like people are not just penises and vaginas. If we were, gender would be so much easier! And yes, hormones do a LOT to biologically change the body, including skin softness, smell/pheromones, breasts, emotional state, etc. Look it up: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hormone_replacement_therapy_%28male-to-female%29

        5. I can only share with you my own personal experience. If it’s negating anything, is that you’ve only been hearing parts of the whole experience. I have similar stories of very positive outcomes with children, but you’d never hear them on a website like this.

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        • Miep 2015/04/22 at 5:46 pm #

          “Cis” is commonly used in a context that insults women, so it’s a slur. Same thing with TERF. “Fish” is a sexual insult referring to vaginal odors.

          I’m aware that not all transgenders devote themselves to cruising the Internet looking for women to intimidate, but I don’t see a lot of effort made by transgenders in general to create any distance from those people who do.

          Brain science studies of adult transgenders ignore neuroplasticity. That right there invalidates them. Also they run small in sample size and exhibit poor repeatability. But even if a proper study was done, which would require tracking humans in the neighborhood of five figure numbers, from birth, (and also filtering out a lot of noise), into adulthood, in order to determine whether any existing differences at birth led to different outcomes, that still would not negate the effects of cultural gender socialization of boys and girls, which starts at birth.

          Your previous comment said that hormones turn a man into a woman. I don’t use Wikipedia as a reference for anything referring to transgender philosophy, they tend to censor anything that is critical of such.

          I have a lot of trouble believing children aren’t confused by being told the man who fathered them is now their mother. What does that make their mother? Children express disturbances differently and some are more resilient than others.

          Like

          • thePhoebeStone 2015/04/22 at 6:07 pm #

            Never have I heard cis being used to insult anyone, just describing them as NOT trans. It’s easier to say cis woman, instead of “normal” woman, or “non-trans” woman. Ah okay, that’s what I was thinking fish meant… though, I still haven’t heard that one being used. But again, I stay away from the interwebs when I can, only when I am writing and need ideas. But that’s also insulting to me so I would never use it! I definitely smell very much like a woman now, and never was keen to the smell in the first place!

            You need to get off the internet and meet a few of us in person. The internet can be filled with the worst of the worst. But I can’t also speak for ALL trans women, only myself here. Nor have I been speaking for anyone else besides me.

            Plasticity doesn’t affect the areas in question (except in development in the womb), so that’s not a good enough answer to disprove what’s been found so far. The more they find too, the more it supports the idea of gendered brains. There IS a difference in trans brains, and BEFORE hormones have been taken. If there wasn’t, they would be equal to the average control group. Enough to say “there is a difference here”.

            I don’t always use Wiki, that’s just the best page I can find that can tell you all the effects from Hormone Replacement Therapy in the best manner, without me linking you to the WPATH7. That’s a book compared to the wiki, and I am only linking it so you can see the changes… it doesn’t matter how censored it is, I was just trying to answer your question and show you they do a lot.

            About being called mother, the trans women I knew told their kids to still call them dad, she fathered them after-all… she said being called mom, without actually birthing the kids, felt wrong. I agree, and would probably do the same if I had kids… but really, all the kids I’ve talked to weren’t phased one bit by me or my experiences. They’re not as cynical as their parental counterparts.

            You seem like a very intelligent, and reasonable person… and I am not here to force anything upon you either. I am just trying to share my experiences to you. I really urge you to befriend someone in your life OFFLINE who is trans, and maybe they can share some more with you. All I know is that we need to steer AWAY from this kind of thinking in your article because it does nothing else but make it harder for us to live our lives peacefully. The damage WE receive from this negative outlook about us is way more than any groups of children with trans parents will ever endure in their entire lifetimes. When they grow up if they don’t like it they can not support them, but the trans person is still being looked at in a negative light here.

            Like

  3. Miep 2015/04/22 at 6:13 pm #

    Even if there does turn out to be some genetic predisposition towards transgenderism (and this would not surprise me) that doesn’t mean you’re really the opposite sex, any more than genetic predispositions towards schizophrenia mean that the visions experienced by schizophrenics are real. They may seem real as hell to the schizophrenic, but others are not obliged to pretend they see them, too.

    Like

    • thePhoebeStone 2015/04/22 at 6:47 pm #

      You are trying to say my personal experience of who I am is equivalent to visions from a schizophrenic? For one, I am mentally sane. Two, gender is a social construct, and people BECOME the gender they identify as, they LEARN to be masculine and feminine. Now, you take someone who is trans with a brain that’s not the same as others, they don’t identify with their birth gender because that’s not how they feel to be on the inside. You can’t call me a man, I’ve never felt to be one, and my brain physically ISN’T male. You can’t just write my experiences off as nothing because YOU don’t believe them… I can’t change how I see myself. It’s who I am. Then, I learned to be feminine, to be a woman, like every other woman who identifies as such. You also can’t say it’s equivalent to schizophrenia because I don’t have that mental disorder, sorry.

      You say I can’t know what it’s like to be a woman, when really I don’t know what it’s like to be a man. Sure, I don’t have the exact same experience as other women do, but not all women are the same either. Doesn’t make me any less a woman. You may think, well your body is male so you must be a man. This isn’t true, the mind and body are separate entities. The mind isn’t the body. You can cut off my limbs but I will still be who I am, and who I am is a woman. Not YOUR idea of a woman, but a woman none-the-less.

      Like

      • Miep 2015/04/22 at 9:07 pm #

        You cannot become a social construct, you can only act it out. And the mind and body are not separate entities, that’s a very conservative, religious fundamentalist sort of viewpoint.

        Like

        • thePhoebeStone 2015/04/23 at 8:18 am #

          They are one in the same sure, but if you cut off my arms and legs I will continue to identify as a woman. They exist in a same, but different realm from one another. Say a soldier blows his lower half off from an IED and no longer has genitals. Is he no longer a man because he doesn’t have male genitals? No, because he still IDENTIFIES as a man.

          Like

    • thePhoebeStone 2015/04/22 at 6:49 pm #

      And it’s not genetic at all, they believe it comes from a lack of androgens when the brain developed (for trans women) or too much androgen (trans men). It’s a birth defect. You can’t write off all 700,000 of us as liars because you can’t understand what it’s like to have Gender Dysphoria. You can though you know, start taking hormones of your opposite gender and tell me how you like it.

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      • Miep 2015/04/22 at 8:54 pm #

        This is kind of interesting, a study of twins and transgenderism. The sample size is small, which makes it far from conclusive, though the intersection between transgenderism and twins will be small by definition. The results were that it was substantially more likely for both identical twins to be transgender than both non-identical twins.

        http://www.hawaii.edu/PCSS/biblio/articles/2010to2014/2013-transsexuality.html

        The whole idea of gender identity being based on something physical is really problematic in that not everybody is all that caught up in it, and arguments about brain differences have been used to oppress people of color and women for ages. So this is the context you’re operating in.

        I agree that the Internet is a difficult place in a number of ways. There is, unfortunately, a cadre of very creepy guys who go around and threaten to kill or rape radical feminists, it’s all been well documented. And the transgender rights movement has gotten far too obsessed with stuff like harassing MichFest instead of building its own distinctive reality. The conflation between transgenders and MRA’s is too strong to ignore. You may see this as more of a troll problem, and there is some validity to that. But it’s terrible press for all of you. Fortunately there are some transgender people who speak up and decry such behavior. That’s more positive, as is recognizing that people who are born biologically female and socialized as such have a shared experience that you do not, and that the world will not end if you recognize that and stop trying to invade our women-only spaces, and instead put your energies into more pressing matters. I do recognize the problems that can be faced in intimate spaces by non-conforming men, but women have these problems from violent men in spades and there is no way to tell a nonviolent transgender from some cross dressing creeper just by looking at them. These are the problems we face.

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        • thePhoebeStone 2015/04/23 at 8:10 am #

          Well they think that due to androgens prenatally when the baby is developing is what causes the brain to not fully develop(trans women), or over develop (trans men), so it would make sense if BOTH twins ended up trans because both brains are developing at the same time. This isn’t talked about to oppress anyone, just to legitimize the trans experience. I felt to be female since I was 4, but how can I explain this to anyone else without people thinking I was nuts. I am not crazy, and that’s how I truly feel. This can’t be written off as heresay when 700,000 people feel the same way… there is something up here, why is this? Maybe because brains can have a big part in how a person personally identifies as.

          You are right gender is a social construct, you LEARN to be feminine or masculine… so someone who identifies as female mentally, learns to be the woman they are. So I was socialized female in equality to other natural born women. The only difference is that I don’t have a period… but women with hysterectomies, or birth defects, etc, aren’t considered any less a woman, so why is it only trans women? Because you THINK I’ve had male privilege? That’s the thing about identifying as female, I didn’t have the same “male privilege” because not only have other men looked down upon me for being too effeminate, and treated me like a second class woman. And any left over that you might think I have I gave up living as a woman.

          The only reason why there was any issues with trans people and MichFest was because trans women ARE women. We belong there as much as the other women, but are denied because of genitals alone (there have been trans people there, but not trans women that look too much like men). It’s unfair to exclude us based on physical appearance. If you don’t think there is a way to tell the difference between trans women and cross dressers, for one I can show you my ID and it says I am Female. So, for Planet Fitness I can show them that and they would know I was trans, so if I tried to just walk into the womens locker room and didn’t have this proof, I would be kicked out. But in reality, there would be nothing to stop a man to cross dress to creep on women… so, things that provide inclusion to trans women are only there to protect them equally as other women, and we need that just the same. The thing is, someone creeping, staring, harassing, abusing, is obviously doing so… so if there is a problem you call the cops, and he gets arrested. There’s no way to tell a non-violent anyone from violent equivalents. That’s why we have jails and police, so if something happens, these people get locked away where they belong.

          Like

          • Miep 2015/04/23 at 7:29 pm #

            You don’t get socialized female merely by virtue of being non-conforming as to gender expectations, though you certainly will get socialized somewhat differently. There have been heavily gendered societies that created third gendered classes for non-conforming men, as I’m sure you’re well aware. But that doesn’t mean these men are women. Not all women can bear children, but no man can. Not all men can impregnate women, but no women can. And cultures that don’t enforce gender scripting won’t abuse non-conforming people to the point where they feel the need to try to be seen as members of the opposite sex.

            Like

          • Miep 2015/04/23 at 7:31 pm #

            With regards to having an ID that says you are female, laws in places such as California have become quite loose as to requirements for changing legal gender markings, and are easily taken advantage of by the determined sexual predator.

            Like

      • Miep 2015/04/22 at 9:05 pm #

        And, no, I have absolutely no interest in taking hormones. HRT fell out of fashion when it became evident that it was causing women all sorts of medical problems, and testosterone does as well. I cannot in good conscience recommend anyone take hormones, they are powerful and dangerous substances. Also, what makes you think I’ve never been uncomfortable with being a woman? I’m not particularly identified with it, nor with being a man, but it’s what I am and it’s a pain in the ass because of all the irritating social expectations. This, I think, is what many women and girls experience, and it’s terribly unethical to encourage them to be subjected to dangerous hormones and genital surgery and breast removal, and I see this happening a lot, it’s very disturbing.

        Like

        • thePhoebeStone 2015/04/23 at 8:15 am #

          I am not serous in telling you to start hormones, just saying if you want to understand Gender Dysphoria personally then start taking testosterone. How would you feel if you started growing facial and body hair, and your voice dropped? That would suck right? I was forced to experience this because of my physical body… but my brain didn’t operate properly on the stuff, and now that I am running on estrogen the Gender Dysphoria was finally alleviated.

          I can feel you on the social expectations, because people think of me less of a woman because I don’t like make-up, and wear jeans and t-shirts. I am a tomboy… but I still identify as female, I still *feel* female mentally. I can’t explain the why, I just can say this is my experience.

          Liked by 1 person

          • Miep 2015/04/23 at 7:34 pm #

            I have a great deal of facial hair and an alto voice. The hair is kind of a hassle but I really don’t care. It’s nice to hear that you don’t feel the need to perform femininity to such a severe extent that many transgenders do.

            I understand that you don’t feel like a stereotypical man, and there is nothing wrong with that.

            Like

  4. Miep 2015/04/22 at 9:17 pm #

    “Plasticity doesn’t affect the areas in question (except in development in the womb), so that’s not a good enough answer to disprove what’s been found so far. The more they find too, the more it supports the idea of gendered brains. There IS a difference in trans brains, and BEFORE hormones have been taken. If there wasn’t, they would be equal to the average control group. Enough to say “there is a difference here”.”

    no, gender is a social construct, not a physical thing. Please explain what “the areas in question” are. I’d welcome a cite but I can look it up myself with appropriate search terms. ty

    Like

    • thePhoebeStone 2015/04/23 at 8:23 am #

      The bed nucleus of the stria terminalis. It’s a part of the brain that was found to be twice as big in men (and trans men) than women (and trans women). The BNSt is a limbic forebrain structure that receives heavy projections from, among other areas, the basolateral amygdala, and projects in turn to hypothalamic and brainstem target areas that mediate many of the autonomic and behavioral responses to aversive or threatening stimuli. The hypothalamus is the part that controls the 4 f’s, fighting, fleeing, feeding, and mating.

      They also found differences in grey matter, but that was the plasticity you mentioned and it was found to be more feminine in trans women who’ve taken hormones, but when they controlled for hormones it wasn’t as much I think… but the BNSt was the same in that study.

      Like

  5. Miep 2015/04/23 at 7:51 pm #

    See, the problem I’m having with your whole train of thought here is that you expect me and other women to see things from your point of view, but you make no effort to see it from our point of view. That is male socialization. That is why women don’t want you at MichFest. There are many events you can attend, but the one left that doesn’t welcome you becomes a target. Female-socialized people don’t look for parties to crash. Female-socialized people give others the benefit of the doubt when they want some privacy. Female-socialized people recognize that some women are so severely sexually traumatized by men that a space where they can heal with no men around is important for them. And that means all of you, conforming or not.

    Men have their own spaces, transgenders like you have their own spaces, people of various ethnic groups have their own spaces. Only people with XX chromosomes and female biology are expected to tend to everyone else and never have anything that is just ours. Your inability or disinclination to see what’s wrong with this is male socialization.

    Like

  6. Miep 2015/04/23 at 8:04 pm #

    Also your response to the twin studies doesn’t work as an argument. With identical and fraternal twins both, any uterine exposure should affect both fetuses equally. The study modestly suggests that there is some genetic predisposition towards transgenderism, but it still doesn’t explain what transgenderism is any more than any of these studies do, and none of this erases that fact that infants are rigidly tagged boy or girl and gender is enforced upon them accordingly.

    The conflation of enforced gender scripting and biological sex is only reinforced by seeing any physical brain differences in transgenders as meaning they are “really” the opposite sex. That is the root of our disagreement. “living as a woman” or “living as a man” are nonsensical phrases outside of a patriarchal context. We want out of patriarchy, transgender philosophy enforces it.

    Like

  7. Dogtowner 2015/05/14 at 12:36 pm #

    What phenomenal patience you have, Miep!

    Like

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